Riding the 80 hour group and training without a coach

(keyboard clicking) - Hi everybody, today on this rainy Sunday, we have James Walsh with us today. And I want to introduce James and give you a little bit about his background. And then we'll launch into the primary focus for this particular recording. So James has been a Russo member, Randomer's USA member since Pi Day in 2013. Pi Day, in my estimation, is the second best US food holiday, second only to National Burrito Day, which comes just a mere three weeks later. You'll have time to digest your Pi before you dig into burritos. So James has done quite a few very challenging rides. If you look over his results listing on the Russo website, James has done several thousand Ks. He's done a domestic 1200 K. I think there's only one in your Palomeras. - Yeah, that would be 16. - Yeah, and then he's finished a PBP twice and the big focus on that particular accomplishment is the last time that you did. You did PBP in 2019 and you did it in 2023. And in 2023, you finished in Charlie Miller time. Charlie Miller, there is a page on the Russo website that talks about Charlie Miller and it's basically the fine-grain details of this is that if you're an American rider and you finish under 56 hours and 40 minutes, you are included into the society there. And I want you to tell us all about your experience on the Russo corporate jet when they took you to the award ceremony for that. So James, in your mind, tell us what the Charlie Miller society is. - Yeah, I definitely encourage everyone to check out that page on the Russo website 'cause I think it's awesome that it's out there and the history there is gonna go way deeper than probably I would be able to hash through on my own. But I think I've always gravitated towards those kinds of stories and when there's a record and the history associated with it as well, that really appeals to me. And I think Charlie Miller kind of checks those boxes because he was the first American to ride in PVP. I think it was 1901. And I think he faced all kinds of adversity over the course of the ride, which is recorded there. And you can really dive into what he had to go through to be able to finish it. And not only that, he did it fully self-supported, I think at a time when it was pretty common for folks to have teams and to have some level, a pretty in-depth level of support on the course. And then the equipment of that era, obviously, and then the fact that he was able to pull off this time of 56 hours and 40 minutes is just incredibly impressive. So I think, yeah, that's kind of what it represents to me is being able to kind of like step into those shoes in some small capacity. And I think that's kind of a cool challenge and a cool experience in a lot of ways. - And so did you also do Charlie Miller time unsupported? - Yes, I did, yeah. So yeah, my approach basically was to kind of, I had a general kind of plan for how I wanted to approach the ride and in terms of like where I wanted to be at what times, I kind of kind of mapped that out to some degree. And I kind of had a sense of, based on other surveys that I've done and other kind of challenging events like what I might need to be able to pull that off, like how much food, what type of food, how many clothing changes, other accessories, that kind of stuff. So I kind of had a sense of what it would take to do it self-supported. It sounded like a plan that was possible. You never know until you get out there and do it. So that was kind of the way I approached it was to try to factor in all those elements and go for it myself. - Do you have an idea of how many people, well, of course there's lots of other riders riding PVP at the same time as you in your start wave. And they're not all Americans. So they're not really wrapped up in the Charlie Miller society. But do you have an idea of how many people or what percentage of riders in that cohort, the 80 hour group are riding with support and without support? - I don't know that I have a clear sense of that in terms, I couldn't throw a number out. I don't think, I will say like at my experience, just kind of riding in that group is that it's not uncommon for folks to have support. So you definitely see it, there are folks that are taking advantage of like a handful of people taking advantage, maybe you have the same person, they have a long providing support. So you see that too, it's not always like one to one. But I would definitely say it's definitely fairly common. - Okay, before we dive into your personal experiences in riding Charlie Miller time, I wanted to know how did Charlie Miller society come on your radar? How did you first hear about it? How long have you been preparing for that? - Yeah, I think if I had to think back on it, I think when I started riding berets in 2013, obviously I think when everyone kind of gets into the sport, PBP comes up, right? It's like the kind of the quintessential event. It's a goal for a lot of folks. It's an impressive goal in and of itself for sure. And then I think in the course of those conversations, again, like I've always kind of gravitated towards those like the history of a route and like, oh, what's been accomplished on this route? What's happened? And I think Charlie Miller kind of lends itself to all those kinds of conversations. I would imagine that probably Theo Roth and I, we used to ride berets quite a bit together and talk about course records and that kind of stuff. It was always kind of fun topic of conversation. And I would imagine that Charlie Miller came up at some point in those conversations. - You were riding with Theo the first time I met you on the cascade. - Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, we definitely, we rode together me, him and Han Rossman for that, like basically that entire event. - I was trying to think of who the third person was in that group. - Right. - So, when did you first think that it was something that you wanted to do? - I think going in in 2019, actually that was the original plan. So, I knew that at my first PVP, I was gonna set that as a goal. So that's kind of where I started with it, was like, okay, well, I don't really know what I'm getting into, but if I'm gonna get into it, maybe I'll try to pull this off and see what happens. And that ride was definitely a huge learning experience. It didn't work out in that way. - You still had a really impressive time. You did 67 hours, I think was. - Yeah, like 67 and a half, something like that. Yeah. So yeah, then that-- - Halfs. - We don't need to bring that in. We're rounding down. But yeah, I think it's just one of those things where there's just, it's so much time out there and there's so much distance and there's just so many things that can, so many things that can occur over that amount of time and distance. - So, as you were riding the 2019 iteration, and you had set out with this aspirational goal, when did you know that it wasn't possible and how did you change your mindset at that point? - Yeah, I think it was probably somewhere around the halfway point. So probably a little after a breast. It just kind of became apparent that that fatigue was setting in and I think the mindset shift was more towards this is an experience in and of itself. And it's good to have goals, but my goal from Charlie Miller is now going to shift to my goal of finishing within the time limit. And I think just trying to kind of maintain perspective that I'm here in France. This is an incredible experience. I'm riding my bike with all these other people that are similarly minded. So just kind of shifting into that, knowing the limitations of kind of where I was at that time. And there was a social aspect to it as well, where it was like, it was my first time out there and I was riding with some folks that I knew and from the US and just kind of like sticking together and enjoying the time together was an aspect too. Like it's always going to be challenging no matter what and we kind of just sort of reconfigured to a different plan. - So how much of your experience in 2019 did you use for motivation, for structure, for 2023? - I think all of it, to be honest. Yeah, I think I knew the course a little bit at that point, obviously from what I remembered of it. So yeah, and I kind of knew it was a similar approach with very little sleep, to be honest. So I kind of knew like going into that second night to me in 2019, that was really where the wheels started to come off a little bit. And I kind of had a better sense of like how I could potentially plan and maybe had my timing around something like that. So I kind of went into 2023 with that perspective. And I think the other thing was knowing how to kind of operate at the controls because the controls can get really busy and how to keep that aspect of the ride efficient and like where it made sense to just eat out of my pockets and where potentially there could be options to get a real bite to eat every once in a while. - So before we dive into the elements of 2023, your experience there, I wanted to ask about what is it like, you've had two experiences riding in the 80 hour group. What do you think the biggest takeaway somebody should take from your experience in the 80 hour group? - Yeah, I think it can be a great way to get in with a pretty speedy group. And that can really save you a lot of time. I've done the B wave both times I've done PVP. So I will say it can get a little hectic in those first few kilometers, especially going through those first couple of villages with the road furniture and the roundabouts and stuff. And there's definitely a little bit of a, some riders approach it a little competitively, which people are trying to win the event from the get go, which I think people get excited and they're ready to go and I totally get it. But it's an aspect like there's a safety aspect, I think for sure. And I think actually in 2019, there were moments where I was a little freaked out in that group to be honest. And then in 2023, I was a little more prepared for it. I'd actually done more like road racing and kind of mass start events. So I had a little bit more of a sense of kind of how to operate and some of that chaos. But I wouldn't like overemphasize that either. Like it's a small aspect of I think getting started. And then I think the benefits outweigh the chaotic elements because again, you can kind of get in with a group of fast riders. In 2023, that really worked in my favor. I tried to just do as little work as possible for that first part of the ride and see where I could contribute, but also like with a large group, it's definitely possible to save a lot of energy. So I was able to take advantage of that for sure. - Okay. So would you say that experience is going to change your, well, having had experience would change your next experience in that eight hour group. So like you, as you said, learned a lot about doing other, not exactly the same kinds of events, but events that had some of the same components. - Yeah, do you mean like the next time I go into PBP? - No, no, no, no. So I want to dive into the experience in 2023, which as I understand telling me was not quite as hair-raising as your experience in 2023 was not quite as hair-raising as 2019. - Right, yeah, I think knowing that it was gonna be that way going in was helpful for sure. Again, I think having some familiarity with the course and like, okay, well, we twist through these first couple of small villages. I can't remember the name of those villages off the top of my head, but, and then potentially, this is where things kind of spread out a little bit more. And this is where we might potentially look at catching the A group or when things will come together and just having that familiarity with the course aspect of it was helpful. And yeah, the other kind of writing that I had done, I started road racing in 2020, which was a great year to kick it off. But yeah, I think it's kind of scratch a different itch. For me, I don't do like a ton of it, but it's definitely, it's fun in a different way, but I think you do get a little bit more of chaos in that environment than you do on a typical domestic purvey, at least. So it's kind of, it was that, I think, prepared me a little bit for 2023 as well. - So in 2019, was there something that you think you could have done in preparation for that, that would have made that experience a little bit different? And basically what I'm looking for is maybe some advice you might wanna give people about how to broaden their preparation. - Yeah, I think being ready for a large group of people. So if you can get yourself involved in some mass start events, if that appeals to folks in any way, definitely not everybody's cup of tea, but I think you have to recognize that if you are in one of those upper waves of PVP, that it's gonna be a component of it. So I think that would probably be the main advice that I would give is to kind of get familiar with riding in a group that's a little large and maybe potentially a little chaotic every once in a while, like people trying to go fast, all in the same limited amount of space. - So to get at the scale of that, what do you mean by a large? Like it's not a peloton of 10 people, it's something more than that. - Yeah, I think like a group of a hundred people to me feels like a lot. And like honestly, I don't do a lot of events that are at that scale, even on the racing side, that's a big event. Although I know SFR has some breves that definitely fall into that category, but those could be great experiences too to kind of like get a sense of starting with that many people at the same time and everybody's kind of getting going. - So let's dive into your experience on 2023. So let's start with the good stuff. What successes did you have in your preparation for 2023? Like the things that went wrong in terms of setting a goal of Charlie Miller in 2019, how did they get fixed? And you know, tell us about that. - Yeah, I think I had a similar training approach to be honest, like from the physical side of it, at least. I think I usually do like a structured training plan at the beginning of the year and kind of think about an event that is gonna be kind of my main focus. Obviously, I think PVP fell into that category both in 2019 and in 2023. So there's some kind of structured interval training that goes into that just to kind of prepare the body to do things that are hard. And then I also think both years I obviously did a full series. I think the thing that I did differently in 2023 was I really pushed myself to doing a sub 24 hour 600 was a big goal for me. And I had achieved that in, I think 2022, but I was curious if I could repeat that success. So I actually, I came down to San Francisco actually for the Mendocino Coast Brevet and gave that a shot and I was able to squeak in just under 24 hours. And I felt like that was a mental win in a lot of ways, but it's also a physical one because you kind of know that like, okay, well, if you can pull that off from the first half of PVP, right? You have a little bit of time in the bank for Charlie Miller and obviously that second 600K is potentially a whole different ball game, but at least that's the way to get started, right? So that was a big thing for me. Yeah, and then I think just doing different types of riding like high intensity riding, also Brevet riding, just being comfortable being on my bike, coming in with fitness, but also I think the fact that it was my second kind of go, I think I came in more relaxed to be honest. And I think that really helped, especially like, it's great that there are so many resources on the internet and everyone's kind of like, if you're in the like random during communities, everyone's kind of traveling and making this a goal and everyone's kind of having these discussions. And for me, I have to honestly like, I definitely like want to be in tune with a lot of that, but I have to unplug a little bit too. And I kind of realized that I think more in 2023 'cause it kind of helped me kind of stay focused. And I knew that it was, I needed to be on my own program basically. - Okay, so let's talk a little bit about that. You and I previously talked about your preparation in terms of whether you had a coach to guide you through this. And your experience was that you did this on your own. So when you were saying earlier about following a structured program, where did that structure come from? - Yeah, so I generally use an app called TrainerRoad, which will kind of, you can kind of map out key events that you want to do, how much time you want to spend a week doing structured training. And then it will basically kind of spit back at you, a calendar and kind of tell you, you're right in these interval sessions on these days. And that really works for me because I kind of crave structure, I think. And I think, there's perspective there too, where life happens and I try not to get too much in my head if I have to miss a workout or something like that. But for me, that particular app has been really helpful in kind of getting me on a program. Yeah, and then I also think just researching, training kind of best practices, what coaches are saying that kind of stuff can be really helpful to familiarizing yourself with nutrition and recovery strategies, that kind of stuff. I find that stuff interesting. I know not everyone does, but I'd like to kind of nerd out on it. So it's kind of helpful for me that I have that, that I can kind of like spend some time reading around on the internet. But I also think that approach isn't for everyone, but I think definitely it is something that I think anyone can really approach if they're interested in kind of looking at it from that perspective. Yeah, so I use TrainerRoad2 and I know that they have a very extensive library of workouts for the trainer indoors. How much of your preparation was indoor and outdoor? And I imagine that it changed over time as you approached the event. Yeah, that's a great question. I kind of do a similar thing most years, but I definitely tried to be more intentional about it in 2023. Our weather here in Portland is, can be a little dicey in the winter. I mean, we don't have it as bad as some other places, but we get our fair amount of rain. So I usually ride structured inside from, I usually kind of start to pick up end of December-ish and then really buckle down. Is that on the December time? Is that like a base low foundation building? Yeah, so typically like the way that these kind of training plans get structured is to kind of start you on a base and move you into, I think they call it a build block. And then eventually you move to specialty, which is like more kind of intense workouts. So basically, I think kind of starting in January is when I kind of start to buckle down into the build section usually, and then I'll ride like three to four days a week inside, which to me, you know, works for me, but I kind of recognize that not everyone's on that program too. You can do the workouts outdoors as well. I think you can sync them to your head unit and do them that way. But yeah, so I usually do that until about, usually until spring, like kind of late spring. I feel like May is kind of when I start to sort of transition. I still ride outdoors at least two days a week-ish during the winter, and then I'll start to do, obviously, purveys and events in the springtime. And then usually I kind of just stop riding indoors altogether around May and kind of shift it only outdoor at that point. - Right, for the benefit of the people that are watching us today, can you give a little bit of background as to the definitions of base and build and specialty? - Yeah, so I think base is generally going to be like an endurance pace, and I'm not an expert on any of this either by the way, but this is kind of my perspective. - Give us an example of a base workout. - Yeah, so a base workout on the trainer would probably be like well below your threshold. And your threshold is essentially the amount of power that you can sustain for an hour. Basically as hard as you're able to work for an hour, and there are different ways of estimating that a 20 minute test is a really popular one that trainer road also has that can set you up with. But so yeah, an endurance pace ride is gonna be, I think probably in the realm of like 50%, that's 60-ish percent of threshold, and they tend to be longer. So I think like to me, a lot of purvey riding is actually gonna fall into that category. It's like the very extreme end because you're on the bike for a very long amount of time, but there usually is not a ton of time where your heart rate is gonna be like extremely elevated or you're putting out like a lot of power, like not dipping into at least the higher end of the anaerobic spectrum or the VO2, and those are like higher power ranges where you're essentially working your heart and your muscles and your body a lot harder. There are those moments. So yeah, I think that would kind of cover the base phase would be those endurance kind of focused workouts and then moving into build. That's when you do start to layer in some of those kind of more challenging intervals. There's a sweet spot is a really common terminology, but it's basically like riding for essentially just below that threshold that you're able to produce and doing kind of longer intervals in there. So you can ride 20 minutes at 80% of your threshold power and maybe do a couple of intervals like that. So that's not the most, it's challenging, but it's not as challenging as putting out a really high amount of power for a really, even a really short amount of time. And that's kind of what you would eventually get into in more of like a specialty phase would be that essentially the intervals start to look smaller, but they look taller because it's a lot more power. And basically the idea there is kind of like conditioning your body now that you have this kind of like base level fitness to be able to kind of build more strength and kind of another side effect of it is getting a little bit more comfortable in very uncomfortable situations. 'Cause those situations are never easy, but it's definitely something that I think helps me mentally as well. - Okay, so I've heard many people talk about the love/hate relationship with the indoor trainer. So tell us what you loved about it and what you hated about indoor training sessions. - Yeah, it's definitely a love/hate relationship. I will back that up. I think the first thing that occurs to me is that it's not the same as riding outside basically at all. I think it's a different form of exercise for me in a lot of ways. And I think it's a very useful one. So I think I love that it's super efficient. I generally like the workouts that I'll do on the trainer, if I do three to four a week, those will range from an hour to two hours long. And I can do it in my house without spending an hour putting on rain gear. So I think that is a huge efficiency gain. - Yeah. - Yeah, for sure. But I guess the downside is that it's a little mind-numbing and it doesn't really kind of scratch the same itch as being outside and being in nature and all these kind of amazing things that I love about riding bikes. - Right, long distances, yeah. - Exactly, yeah. So it's a trade-off for sure, but I think it's a very useful tool in a lot of ways. - Right. So let's see, let's talk about, what was the next thing I was saying we would get into? Actually, let me do it this way here. So what sorts of things about Charlie Miller and preparing without a coach, haven't I asked you yet that you anticipated we'd talk about? - Let's see. I think we covered everything. I think the nutrition stuff is the other thing that I think I mentioned it. I think you asked a question that kind of related to it, but I think that's a really important aspect of the ride, to be honest. It's like we've talked about going in mentally prepared, going in physically prepared, but I think also just kind of knowing what you're gonna eat and what you're gonna drink is super important. And I think that's something that comes from a lot of experience going into the event. And I think purvey riding is a great way to get a sense of that and like I think experimenting with that and kind of locking it in during your series is super important. And that's the kind of stuff that I know a lot of people will turn to a coach for because they have a lot of valuable insight. But I also think there's a little bit of trial and error that you can do on your own to kind of figure out like, oh, I need this many carbs per hour or this type of nutrition really works for me. Or it seems like I need more electrolytes than a lot of other people. That's something that I've uncovered. So kind of just being able to kind of dial those things in a little bit. And then honestly, I think most people, I think a lot of people do this, but I bring all my nutrition stuff with me over to France prior to the event just 'cause I don't really know what I'm gonna be able to get there. And I kind of know what I know. So it's kind of a pain because you need a lot of fuel for ride of that distance. But to me, it's totally worth it. - Okay. Let me ask you this question here. So I wanna get into what your approach and routine and experience was at the control. So you ride in with a big group and then what? Let's use Lodiak as an example. - Yeah, I think Lodiak is actually a bit of an atypical example for most controls because they actually had the drop bags there, which was amazing in 2023. So that was kind of like, actually, when I talked about how I structured my ride in terms of like the loose time plan, I kind of broke it up into thirds and Lodiak pressed, Lodiak was kind of like, those were my kind of general time goals that I had because I knew that I would have access to my bag and I would be able to kind of re-up all my bars and potions and put on a clean pair of bike shorts, which is amazing in that situation. So yeah, I think in Lodiak, that was kind of going through my mind, but it's kind of similar because I would go in with a plan, like, okay, here's like kind of approaching, leading into it like a mental checklist. Here are the things that I'm gonna do. I'm tired, so I need to stay on track. I even wrote notes and I put them in my drop bag just to kind of remind me of things that I needed to take care of and just kind of make sure that I was able to do them quickly. So that was really helpful for me. And then it's the same thing going into the other controls, I think too, I would just think like, okay, well, I'm gonna get my card stamped, I'm gonna fill up my water. I'm gonna like, I don't know, do like pump up my tire, like whatever the thing that needed to be done was just kind of like have that kind of sense of it going in and that can be really helpful. Towards the end of the ride, I kind of threw that out the window and I was stopping to get sandwiches and stuff. But I had a little time in the bank at that point. - So I picked Ludiak as an example, primarily because of the bike parking situation. - Oh, okay. - And so what was your experience in an 80 hour group? So you're arriving there before the biggest start group, the 90 hour group would ever get there. And so I imagine that it might have been easier than it would be for the people behind you, but what was your experience? - Yeah, I think if I recall correctly going in, it was pretty dead, also on the way out to breast when you go through Ludiak, no issues with bike parking. I don't even know if I, I don't think I did a costume change on that leg. So I think I just grabbed some bars and stuff from my bag and kind of re-supplied on food. And so I think that was a pretty efficient stop actually. Going back in was different. I think they call that the bulge, which is basically like when you have the outbound folks coming out from the other start groups, and then you also have the inbound folks coming back and you're kind of converging at the same controls at the same time. - Yeah. - And it was a little hectic for sure and that was the point where I knew I was gonna need to budget for sleep, to be honest. And I had kind of worked that for my 2019 plan 'cause I talked about kind of the wheels starting to come off in the second half of the ride. And I kind of knew that like two nights is kind of my limit. And like I knew they had dorms in Ludiak. So I knew I was gonna like, I kind of planned on using that option there, at least for a couple of hours. And I did end up doing that, but I will say it was chaotic. And like it's a lot to navigate. So I think you mentally need to prepare for that because you're tired too. At least for me, like dealing with those situations, it's a lot of people, they're tired, I'm tired. Like it's something that you kind of have to like prepare yourself for going into it. And then having the plan of like, okay, well, I'm gonna put my bike on this end of the spot. So it'll be really easy for me to find again in this sea of people and all this stuff, just having a little bit of a strategy, even if it's very low level sleepy person strategy, I think was helpful for me. - Yeah, my own experience going into Ludiak, certainly in 2019 and probably every year before that, was that when I in the 84 hour group arrived in Ludiak, the racks were packed. - Oh yeah. - So I didn't get a chance to pick which part of the biking area should I park in. I had to find an open spot and it took a while. I walked down a couple of rows. - And you're walking around in bike shoes too. Which is just something to keep in mind too, especially when you're tired. And yeah, you're having to walk across an entire paved parking lot, it's not ideal. So yeah, I think recognizing that as a factor would probably be helpful for a lot of people. Like the controls are definitely gonna take longer on the second half. And you're gonna see tired people and you're gonna be a tired person and that adds time and complexity as well. - Right, so how do you think somebody would have to approach PBP in 27 given that the route has changed so much that places like Ludiak while they're still on the route aren't gonna be the same because you only visit that place once. - Yeah, I haven't had a chance to dive too deep into the route changes. I knew that they changed it significantly. But it's essentially a little bit less of an out and back. Is that kind of the situation? - There's a very large loop on the western end. And there is some commonality on the eastern end, the outbound to the place where they diverge. I imagine, I don't know this from memory here, but I think that they diverge or converge in the vicinity of Tintiniac. - Yeah, that's interesting. Okay, I honestly think that would make for a slightly more scenic ride in a lot of ways. And I think the benefits would probably outweigh the second part of what I'm thinking I'm about to say, which is probably that's gonna add complexity for sure in the strategy. Yeah, and with Rusa being able to offer Drop Ag support, I think Ludiak being an option for both inbound and outbound riders really helps simplify that 'cause they just have to take the bags to one spot right. And you can get a lot of resources throughout the ride by kind of taking advantage of that. So if those options are not quite available anymore, it's just gonna add a little bit of complexity in terms of planning and figuring out how to get the stuff you need at various points. - Which Drop Ag service did you use in 2023? - I used the Rusa one. I think Deb Banks organized it. - Yeah, that really wasn't Rusa's, but Deb of course is a well-known figure in Rusa HQ. - Oh, gotcha. - Yeah, but she didn't do it as a result of Rusa organizing it. - I did not realize that. Well, it was very nice to be able to take advantage of it. Somehow I got myself in that situation and I was very thankful to have that option. So one of the other videos that is in the can already and will be published very soon is an interview with Deb talking about the challenges of Drop Bank services for the new route. And it's basically, I think that it was pretty clear to her that it's gonna require two bags. - Yeah, it seems like from what you're saying, that would probably be the case, which from the writer's perspective, I think that wouldn't have added much complexity for me, honestly, in 2023. But from the support perspective, that seems like double the amount of work from what I'm hearing. So I mean, that-- - Very close to double, yeah. There might be some efficiencies in doubling up, but there's also complexities. Clearly, if they have to go to different destinations, it's twice as many vehicles that they're gonna have taken, quite likely twice as many staff. - Yeah, well, I hope that that option exists for folks if they need it, but it will be a tricky one, it sounds like with that in the course. - Right, okay, so let me ask you quickly before we go into the wrap up here, anything else you wanted to add to the discussion about Charlie Miller, about 80 Hour, about training without a coach, any of that stuff? - I think just the way I would recap it is, I think it's a very approachable goal, and it's a very cool one to kind of layer into the PPP experience. Obviously, 80 Hour is a challenge in and of itself, completing the course is a challenge in and of itself. It's definitely difficult. And I think the preparation aspect of it, what works for me is trainer road and interval training and doing those different types of intensity riding and then trying to be mentally prepared. But I think anyone that has a similar version of that plan might not even need to stick to a formula that even resembles that, as long as you have a plan that you know is gonna work for you. And you have some experience like, maybe 600K that went really well or like 1,000 or 1,200 that went really well and you're kind of able to back that experience up with some of those sort of real life examples. I think there's a lot of opportunity for folks to do it differently than I did, but take a similar kind of planning approach basically. - Yeah, so what you just said reminded me that there was something else that I didn't wanna ask you. And that is, what would you advise or suggest or even use yourself in terms of what you do in 2026? - Yeah, that's a good question. That hasn't quite fully processed that one yet. I think. - Well, let's start out with this. Would you suggest to somebody that they do a 600K this year? - Absolutely, yeah. I think actually one thing I didn't do in 2022 for I guess, pre-qualifiers that that would be is I think I only rode up to a 600K that year. So I didn't have 1,000 or 1,200. And I was able to get a spot in the B wave, but I wasn't able to get a spot in the A wave. And I think, and I know the event is just becoming increasingly popular in a lot of ways. So I think if you're interested in securing a specific wave within that 80 hour start, I would definitely encourage folks to do one of those longer events during the pre-qualifiers to be able to register early. 'Cause that's definitely been more on my radar for this year specifically. - Yeah, so would you look at the 600K as the no less than option for 2026? - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's kind of the way I look at it. And then I think experimenting with trying, like obviously there's a ton of different ways to approach a 600K and I just did an 8K 600K last year. And that was not like a particularly speedy result. That's a different type of ride. But I think like going into like a Charlie Miller attempt or trying to kind of figure out how you would approach it or like kind of how you would calibrate towards that type of ride, I would encourage folks to try to do a 600K speedy style. Like I try to go fast and see how that feels, see what works, see what doesn't work. Because that's gonna be a component of the ride. - We're talking specifically about people with Charlie Miller aspirations. - For sure, yeah. - Yeah, 'cause the general population myself included, trying to do a fast 600K is probably going to be less bang for the buck than just doing a 600K. - Oh, absolutely. Like feeding the experience and gaining the incremental knowledge that you get from doing multiples of those. - Absolutely, yeah. And I think like, yeah, in a general sense, that's true of all of us, to be honest. I just think if you're layering in the other kind of level of like how, like I want to hit this target time and what's that going to feel like or what level of confidence do I have that I can actually pull this off? Having that kind of real life example that you've achieved, you know, on an actual Brevet, I think of that distance is a good feeling for sure. - Yeah, do you know offhand how many 600Ks you've done yourself? - I don't. I feel like I've done almost one a year since 2013, but I definitely skipped a year or two in there. - Yeah, so you might have done as many 600Ks as I've done, but I had nine more years ahead of you in collecting those. - Okay. - Yeah, so my experience was that, you know, the first 600K I did was luckily for me in terms of, you know, being able to do PBP years later was not what set the tone. It wasn't the deciding factor because I had a miserable experience on that. - Okay. - And it wasn't until two or three iterations later where I finally had fun on a 600K and immediately on finish was thinking, you know, I'm really glad I did that. It took a while for me to learn enough stuff to be able to deep into the ride, still appreciate, you know, my surroundings. - Yeah, I can totally understand that. I think everyone kind of has a different way of kind of dealing with rides of different distances. At least I've noticed that in like a lot of the Brevet riding I've done. And even with people that I think like are similarly paced, they like different distances and different, you know, like different kind of timeframes of riding can be more challenging for certain people than others. Like personally speaking, 400K is tough for me. Like that's a really tough distance. - Yeah, I wonder if our impressions of the toughness are the same. So we'll talk about why you think it's really tough. - I think it's enough time that, like for me at a certain point, time becomes the enemy on rides that start to get that long. And it's long enough that you can't really, or at least I can't really just kind of like smash through it as quickly as possible. There needs to be some level of strategy in figuring out like how fast am I going to go for, you know, to keep myself together. But like how fast does that have to be even before I start to like just get to the point where I'm like, I don't want to be on this bike anymore. So for me, a 600K is a little bit more approachable in that way for some reason. I'm not sure why. - I wonder if it's the same as me in that on a 600K long before you get to, well, like the halfway point on a 600K is 300K. And you can almost feel this sense of, okay, this is where I can like turn off the machine here and just gather my thoughts and rest and whatever. But on a 400K, you've only got 100K more to go. And so there's this motivation to just keep going. And you know, whatever resources you might have will have been dwindled and will only dwindle more because you haven't had the chance to refresh yourself in some way. - Yeah, I could see that. Yeah, I think like that kind of reminds me of something that I think is interesting about interval training too, just not to go completely back in time to our previous conversation, but the compartmentalization aspect, I think is super interesting. I think it's, for me, it's really important and kind of what you just described. I think like writing intervals on the trainer is very much like that for me, where I'm kind of playing these mental games with myself. Like, okay, well, like if it's a 20 minute interval and now I'm 10 minutes in, I'm halfway through obviously, right? Like I think everyone kind of approaches stuff that's hard with that same mentality, but bringing that into something like PVP or like a hard 400K, I think can be really mentally rewarding and not getting too much in your head at the beginning of the event if it's hard, but like at the end kind of just compartmentalizing and thinking like, okay, well, you know, I only have 100K, I've written 100K a million times. Like I just need to get this done and that kind of stuff. - Can you talk a little bit about compartmentalization earlier when you were talking about dividing the event into thirds and... - Yeah, totally. - In the past, routing was roughly that third. - Yeah, definitely. - More than a third to get out, it's less than a third to get out to the turnaround and come back and then you have that large, but it works in three kind of equal segments. - Yeah, definitely, that was kind of my, that was what I had kind of scratched into my purvey card, my chicken scratch of like times was sort of kind of breaking those thirds into, you know, okay, well, at this time of day, I'm gonna be here. And then I think that's kind of my obsession with talking about the 24 hour, 600K too, is if you get there on PVP, that's a huge mental achievement. And then you're kind of, you know, you're on the return leg and you have a little bit of time in the bank if you're going for Charlie Miller, to be honest. So there's a little bit more time to play with. - Yeah, so how many days after you finished in 2023, did you finally come to grips with what you had accomplished? - I think I felt pretty good the second day, not physically, but I was happy. I felt like I did have a feeling of mission accomplished. There was a certain point where I was kind of flirting with the idea of trying to achieve a 50 hour time, but I didn't, that was a very fleeting thought. So I wouldn't say that there was regret because of that, but I feel like, you know, that's another challenge that potentially someone, I don't know about me, essentially someone could unlock and people have. And I think that's a cool thing to pursue as well. - So let's get into the five questions that I've asked on my interview subjects. - All right, let's do it. - So the first one, and I think you've already foreshadowed the answer to this, are you going to PBP 2027? - I am, yes, that is my plan. - Okay, then the next thing might be considered a trick question here. What do you think is the best bike for PBP? - Oh yeah, that's a tough one. Actually, an area where I took a much different approach in the two years that I've done it. For me, honestly, it's a road bike, like a modern road bike. That's the bike that I am most comfortable on, bikes that I do the most riding on, the bike that I feel the fastest on. And to me, those are all like factors that go into a successful ride. And, you know, that's different for everybody, you know, what that list looks like. But for me, that's definitely like the choice. - Yeah, so how did you find the bike that you ended up landing on? - I got a new, actually, I got a new road bike in 2023, so that same year. And then I did a bunch of riding on it. I found it because I sort of had researched and sort of knew what I was after, primarily for road racing, to be honest. But I also knew that like for faster Brevet riding, it was gonna be basically the same choice. - So you basically took what you had learned from the bikes that you had used up to that point, put it all together and figured out what is the thing that is gonna fill, take off most of the boxes. - Yeah, definitely. And again, I think that balance is different for different folks. And like in 2019, I did it, did the ride on a steel, like traditional Rando bike and had access to a handlebar bag. And, you know, it's a different approach. But, you know, for me in 2023, I was pretty confident based on the riding that I'd done that I could do it on the road bikes, stuff, stuff into my pockets. Like I'd done rides like that before. So I, you know, I had that experience to kind of understand that it was gonna work. - Would you say that this statement is true or not? The best bike would be something that, you know, provides comfort deep into a long event. - Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think that comfort can look different for different folks. Like it's not just physical comfort. Like, you know, does the saddle work for me? Obviously that's important. But like there's also that aspect of like, am I gonna feel like I'm dragging this thing when I'm tired and when, or is it gonna feel like when I'm going down a hill, am I gonna feel like I'm going fast or like I'm kind of fighting the spike or like those aspects I think are important to think about too. - Yeah, you're not optimizing for speed throughout. You're optimizing for other things as well. And certainly not speed at the cost of everything else. - Absolutely, but I think there's a mental factor too, at least for me, where it's like, how much am I enjoying the experience of riding this thing? And like, what's the feedback like from this bike? So I think that's important. - Okay, so the next question, name one thing that you cannot do without on PvP. - Ooh, I think food. I have called it an eating contest. I think other people have made that joke before, but it's, you can't underestimate like the amount of calories you're burning. - Yeah, there's a phenomenal amount of throughput if you want to put it that way. - Yeah, I think the first Super 600K I did, was with Theo actually. And Han Rossman gave us some advice and he said, "Don't forget to eat, "because you're going to be climbing all day. "And you're probably not going to feel like eating." And it was in the middle of the summer, so it was hot and all that. And like, taking that same approach to riding a 1200K, especially like, if you're going without sleep and through multiple days, and like there's a lot of opportunity to just forget. And I think that's going to put you in a much worse spot. And generally, like if I start to, if something starts to go wrong, like either mentally, or like, you know, if it's like a bike issue or something, the first thing I'll try to remember to do is to eat, because that's usually going to put me in a better situation to be able to deal with whatever's happening. And I think that that can't be understated, at least for me, like just to, you know, keeping the calories coming in and keeping hydrated. - Okay. So the next question, which control in your estimation is the best one? - That's a good question. I think I can't remember much of Lodiak other than it being a little bit of a blur, to be honest. But I think the fact that they have, I think that can be a very useful one to bank on if you're interested in sleeping in a place that you know is going to be reliable. So I don't know if it's the best experience overall, if that's the spirit of the question. But for me, it's a good one to have kind of flagged on the radar as this could be a place where I could kind of recharge a little bit. - So maybe question number five will help you focus. I mean, answer to number four, what are your favorite foods at the controls? - Yeah, you can't go wrong with like croissant and coffee. So for me, that's an amazing combination. I'm vegetarian, so my options are somewhat more limited, but I think like just the amount of pastries that are available in general, like they're not only quick to eat, they're high in calories and it's kind of like, you get all that sugar in you, which I think can be really helpful for that kind of short-term kind of boost. Yeah, and then just being able to drink a hot coffee is amazing in a situation where you've been up for a while and especially if it's on the colder side, which I definitely experienced both years I've done it. - Yeah, so let me ask you as the last question, not necessarily from the list here, but how long did it take you to heal from the injuries from eating baguettes? - Yeah, that's a great question. I feel like it's hard to sort that out after the ride for me, to be honest. I think there's definitely a couple of days of recovery and I'm not sure if it's shoving bars in or baguettes could definitely be a culprit. The amount of like sun exposure that you get, that was something I learned in 2019 actually was I didn't wear a chapstick at all and my lips were pretty wrecked, which is painful. So I took that into 2023 to remember to do that. Obviously, chamois cream is helpful as well. So just kind of getting all your, kind of like getting sorted with all the things that you need to kind of like after the ride be kind of, you're gonna be sore obviously, but you don't want to be injured, right? So like just kind of minimizing that and baguette eating is a part of that, I guess. - Well, on that note, I think we will wrap up James. Thank you so much for the time spent today. And I wish you luck in 2027. Hopefully you will see me there. - Yeah, hopefully I will. Hopefully I see you before then, but thanks for having me for this, Rob. It's been really fun. - You bet. All right, thanks. - All right, see ya.