So, for today's installment of the Paris, Paris, Paris preparation seminar series. I have invited somebody here to talk about bicycles in all the facets that we can dream up. What kind of bike, what kinds of bikes historically have been used, what sorts of things to focus on for bikes and chose somebody here that is very familiar with building bikes with maintaining bikes with riding the bikes and specifically on PVP and elsewhere and what other riders have chosen. Basically, our guest today here has had experience in a long timeframe, and seeing quite a number of different people from around the country, go to PVP and while at PVP has had experience seeing what riders bring from other countries here so today's guest is bill Bryant. Bill has quite a pedigree with random nurse USA, and also a pedigree that comes well before the existence of random nurse USA. Bill's experience with bikes begins quite some time back back in the 70s when Bill was a mechanic in shops in Davis, California. And through that experience there he met some people that he helped with his mechanic skills. And those people went to Paris, Paris, Paris, among some of the first Americans to go. I believe that the first Americans went in 1975, and bill got some of his cohorts from the Davis area over to Paris, Paris, Paris in 1979, which would have been the second time that a sizable American community went. Bill himself rode Paris, Paris, Paris in the early 80s. This would be 1983 for his first one and returned in 1999 to ride on a tandem and successfully finish in between those years bill continued to go to France for Paris, Paris, Paris, and was able to see the event unfold as an observer. He also attended PVP as a volunteer twice in 2007 and in 2015 and 19. And has been over quite a number of times in, in multiple roles I think in 2019 you did both bike check where the bicycles are checked over quickly to see whether they fit the lowest standard of safety for for the ride. And also as a control volunteer, where you saw Bill riders both outbound in an inbound and could see what made it to that second checkpoint. So today, Bill, Bill and I are going to have essentially a conversation about his experiences, and some of the observations that he's made over the years. Bill, did I leave anything out of your introduction there. No, sounds fine, Robert. Nice to be with you. Great. So, let's start with what you saw. As far as PVP bikes back in 1979 and when you yourself wrote in 1983. What were some of the things that you saw what was the variety of bicycles that you saw at that time. It's probably more narrow than it is now I think then you typically saw rod steel frames. Racing frames that you can enter in a road race that was the standard bike of the day or maybe a sportive model where you could put fenders on it and some lights, but still the essence of a lightweight racing frame. In 1979 83 a lot of people were on tubular so up tires and rims, but by 83 clinches were starting to make themselves be seen in the in the club riding scene of Europe. They were often carried. You could tell the riders. If they're from the continent very often they had a large front handlebar bag. If they're from England or the US quite often they had a saddlebag maybe a carries bag, just as we see today. The lights were awful. The riders were used they were they rubbed on the tire or the rim, but the output was feeble and if it rained and of course it did rain back in the olden days. That's why we had fenders that they'd often slip and so you just dreaded nighttime rain, because your light may not work and so there are some horrible battery lights often carried as a backup, but riders would really gather together at night and try to ride sort of massing their headlights, because of the crappy lighting that they had. That's been probably the biggest change since then I mean you saw Brooks and EDL leather saddles just as you see today. You saw most bikes just had frame shifting levers, which you still see but nowadays you see more of the shifting up on the handlebars or of course now you even see electronic shifting, but in some ways the bikes look familiar to me. They're loaded down with layers of clothing, fenders, low gears for when the Randonore is tired and the hill is steep. I wanted to ask you about the fender part. So did you see more people using fenders back in 79 and 83. Yes, you did because full fenders were required at PBP days. It was considered a touring event, not a racing event and the fenders sort of emphasize the point this is a touring event and racers, you know, weren't welcome. People certainly went fast, but they did it with fenders on their bikes. I should also note, in those days, there was no advertising allowed on your clothing. You saw club names on maybe a little on their chest or something like I've got here for Randonore USA, and that would be it or maybe down the sides, but it would be just the club name and that was all, or perhaps a national jersey if you'd come from overseas, you would see like a Belgian themed jersey or from some other countries. But by and large, it's just your regional club cycling jersey or or plain you just saw people with jerseys of one or two or three colors. And that that's all that there was which wasn't unusual that remember this would all be the time before Lycra, where nowadays you can print up all sorts of logos, we have event jerseys people earn, you know, different jerseys from finishing an event and make show those off at PBP. You know, the, your mention of now, nowadays, they're being more Lycra kind of raises a little theme that I can sense happening here. And it's this transition from things and this ties into a comment you you made a little bit earlier about how the lights were. Yes, and nowadays the lights are much better. So we have progression of lighting. Yeah, we have progression of clothing to more technical clothing nowadays. What I wanted to ask was, did you see quality of fenders change over time. Were they pretty reliable and durable or problems with Fenders back now. No, I would say fenders were similar as ski which has become SKS, which is still virtually the same product I still use them, or the old blue males were very popular with riders. Also, some of the French rider had the nice aluminum fenders but they were rare, even in the 80s. And so you saw them using SKS or blue males fenders, pretty common that they're also less expensive cycling, I would say was more of a blue collar sport on the continent. And then in the US, the US, if you could afford a trip to France, you know, that was, you probably weren't going to be blue collar. But, and you, a lot of US riders might have had a college degree. That wasn't true with, I'd say a lot of the randonours from France and Belgium. But I'm going to double back on your Robin. Okay, clothing. Yes, clothing has become more technical, but in those days we had lots of wool. And you'll, you'll remember that breast is Paris's rainiest city. And the fenders on the bikes weren't just some affectation that, I mean, the fenders usually got used pretty seriously at Paris, Paris, Paris, and sort of wool clothing. Lycra is easier to launder. It can be less expensive. But you know, like the 2007 PPP was four days of rain and cold and fog and just was dreadful. The fenders with wool clothing, we're really happy that they've dragged them along. So many American riders still favor wool clothing. It's technical in its own way, you know, with the tall fiber from Mother Nature. But it's just expensive and it's hard to launder and all that. Because it's placed when you're riding around the clock on a 1200 K and you're soaked to the skin will keep you warm when some so called, you know, high tech garments, don't do as much as they promise. Yeah. So for rain gear, did have we seen a progression of that getting better. Yes, I would definitely say the rain jackets you can buy or hats and things helmet covers are definitely better than we had in the old days. The old days, well, they were just sort of horrible cheap shoddy jackets. Now the technical gear that you'll see some Rondon was using really is quite good. And the other thing, of course, helmets weren't widely used, they're still not required at PVP, but I did I've done sort of an informal count, and I'd say 90 to 95% of participants choose to wear a helmet. And that's probably not such a bad thing. But, of course, in the old days, we just had wool caps and cotton caps if it was sunny and hot. Right. So, there's two things that I want to not lose track of here. The first one I think is a good segue to another topic and another related topic, of course, so we just talked about rain gear. And you certainly don't wear your rain gear the whole ride, sunny or rainy. So you've got to carry it somewhere. This is a segue to the bikes and carrying capacity. Right. What sorts of things have you seen change from the late 70s, early 80s to nowadays. As I mentioned, it was real normal as it is still, you'll see many people using a largest handlebar bag, but even that won't carry all your gear. So there might be a smallish rear rack, and they would have maybe the raincoat and a wheelchair is it kind of bundled up and strapped to the rack. But that's not unusual to see nowadays. What is, and there were a lot of carities or canvas British saddlebags back in the old days, and they still work quite well. I'm a fan. However, if you start thinking about all the stuff you're going to put on to your nice lightweight sporty bike to do pbp well vendors I think are a good thing, your lighting system some backup lighting your bags to carry stuff then of course the things in the bags, and the colors of clothing some food tools repair you know inner tubes things like that. It all starts to add up and so you think about the weight of everything so I weighed a charity saddle bag, and I don't write a leather saddle I write a, you know, a nylon saddle which doesn't have the saddle so I use a bag man support. A charity bag and a bag man comes in just a little under three pounds. Okay, fenders by themselves are just one pound if I could just take, you know, one pound off my gear. And that would essentially mean that the offenders are writing for free well nowadays you see these. I want to call them bike packing bags that sort of are nylon fabric and they sit under the saddle they're a saddlebag, but they're, they're not transverse like a carities, they're they run for an after what there's two things going on there one they eliminate the need for some sort of supporting rack, which is a good thing. Wait there but the other thing is, they're more aerodynamic. And now, most randoners would just kind of scoff the idea of aerodynamics, but let it 2019 out on the route all people could talk about was that darn headwind that was in their face from a Rambo yay to breast, and they felt some writers are feeling like they're getting to breast an hour or so longer two hours longer than that it would have taken them. They're under more normal circumstances. Well, aerodynamics do begin to come into play and if you've got all your stuff directly behind your rear end, instead of sticking out to the sides of your hips, maybe that matters. Or if you're and I'm now I'm veering into clothing but if you have a big loose floppy windbreaker that's, you know flapping in the breeze that's not so good so you know you want something a little more sleek. But anyway, we get back to the bike bags. I would say more and more. I'm seeing the bike packing bags that are more aerodynamic on London or saddles now than the traditional carries bags. And I guess that's a good thing. It's a progress that seems to be looking out pretty well. So as an observer for all of the events of pbp events in between when you were actually riding. And for the times when you were a volunteer, particularly in 2019 when you were out on the course, as well as having done the bike check at the start. So what sorts of things did you see that either struck a chord with you as yes this seems to be working or more specifically, what did you find things that didn't work at all. Well, if you're looking in the bike check or looking at the bike racks at the controls where I was patient. There's, I think people shouldn't get hung up that you need some super fancy expensive racing bike with top of the line Dura ace or company or the record components. On a simple ride, the next tear down they might have a good, you know, middle range road bike that has like Shimano 105 components, or mid range SRAM, or Campagnolo components. They're using something like a road bike that they might do club rides on or a century or a grand Fondo, and then they're using these various bags and lights are lashing everything to their handlebars, which isn't always successful because your handlebars you start to run out of space on your handlebars when you think about handlebar bags and lights and all this stuff, but still, they're taking kind of road regular road bikes just as I saw in the 70s and 80s and adapting them for Ron DeNoring. I don't think you need to go out and buy a specific Ron DeNoring bike. I think Ron DeNoring is like a big tent that welcomes all sorts of riders. And then what's interesting is how they approach the same goal of earning a medal. Some of them are on super lightweight racing bikes, others are on lightweight racing bikes that have a lot of stuff lashed on to them this time even carry a little backpack to carry a couple clothes, you know, like a jacket or something because they've run out of space on their bike. You'll see people on recumbents on tandems on fixed gear bikes. You'll see mountain bikes with road tires. Pardon me pardon me vellumobiles. Yeah vellum. I mean you see all kinds of human powered vehicles. And that's basically the only rule. It has to be solely human powered obviously be bikes are not going to be welcomed there. Now when you say what hasn't worked out. What was interesting in 2019. I wasn't aware of anybody in 2015 but 2019 I saw, I think about a half a dozen people on the big really fat wheeled like snow bikes or you know mountain bikes with super wide tires. And I think I counted about six outbound I lowest and I were stationed at Fougere at 300 kilometers. And we saw, and I counted about six riders on fat bikes, and on the return I didn't see any so maybe they came through while I was taking a nap. And I kind of think maybe fat bikes, maybe aren't the best equipment choice. Now, I guess I've thrown down the gauntlet and someone's going to try and prove me wrong. But I would imagine you probably have a support car to keep your bike as light as possible. And you could sleep in the car so you don't have to wait in line at a hook at a dormitory at the control or something but you know if the bike is just really heavy and doesn't roll real well with real heavy fat tires may not be the best choice for an event where there's no standing in line to get control or standing in line to get food or standing in line for this that are the other thing. Pbp isn't as efficient as like your local Brevet where you kind of walk up get controlled get some food and go. You can be in and out of controls in five minutes at a local Brevet around the world. And Pbp you will lose time you might have your slowest 600 K getting to breast because of the lines and also I would recommend people really think seriously about an efficient lightweight bike. I know of one fellow years ago he tried Pbp I think three times and then but he always failed from gut issues you know digestive issues and he decided he was the thing that worked for him on Brevet and he did it for 600 K was eating gels sports gels like goo and other things like that. He carried 1200 K worth of gels a couple 300 calories per hour and if he's riding about 60 hours or thereabouts and his bike at the start I went to pick it up I could hardly lift it it was stupendously heavy. No prizes he wasn't he got the brass he was exhausted because of the hilly Pbp route right like was too heavy you know what he needed to carry was money and spend money for food but for whatever reason for him the only thing that worked was gel. And he did I will say then the next time he did it again he modified his eating and he did successfully finished I think once a three or four times unsuccessful and he finally did earn his metal some years ago, but it will show. It shows you the length people go to in their head they think they have to do something in order to be successful or they want to be successful like riding a fat bike or or something unusual like Sophie matter had sort of a woman's commuter bike a few years ago. Yeah, I think it was a three speed. Yeah, yeah, Drew Buck from England he had Johnny onion, even less efficient, you know, bike of the Breton onion cells that go take the ferry to England and sell their onions around Britain in the old days. So, so for far away from Johnny onion, I wanted to have you give a little bit more background so that people have context for for that comment. This is a well known British rider who would he's been to pbp. Many times. Yeah, at least a half dozen times perhaps. And he certainly in the last four iterations chose to ride a, not just vintage bike but a historical bike, and the insist that bill is referring to. He wore wore the costume of a farmer who many many decades back was a typical channel crosser where they would grow onions in the fields in Brittany, hop on the ferry and go sell them in England, and then come back. Having made some money to do that and so he wore the guys of one of the inhabitants of a long bygone era, and rode a bike from that time. Yeah, he's also written. I think in the last iteration, or maybe this was 2015 he rode. He rode some kind of a racing style bike but a racing style bike from at least a century ago, like 1910 or something. Yeah, right, right. It was a two speed pedal forward and regular. You could pedal backwards in a lower gear. It was from before derailers. Yeah, and the one thing I want to say now drew had written pbp successfully. He prior to all his historic reenactments. He knew what he was getting into. Oh yeah, anybody is going over there as a first time rider I strongly urge him to ride a conventional bicycle, and make sure you can earn your metal at least once. And then if you want to do something. Yeah, go for it. Yeah, there's two Italian. The, when drew road that bike that was the pedal forward in one gear pedal backward in another gear circumstance I think that he had some mechanical issues at some point. And that is that as a segue to a conversation about what's the most prevalent mechanical issue that you've seen certainly type flat tires. Yeah, are that, although to give context here. I think most people that go there experience far fewer flat tires than than they normally would across 750 miles. Yeah, the roads there are generally free of glass and debris. There might be some now. I've, I've noticed a change in the 80s 90s. The roads were spick and span that you just, you would puncture but it was, it was so rare. Many people do the whole event without puncture. That's normal. There might be a little bit more debris like little wires from car tires are a little bit more broken glass but compared to American roads. I mean, we'll go over there and just be stunned at how nice the roads are right in the old days I'd say you would not see a pothole. Now, I think road budgets to keep things up are not what they used to be in France. And so I'm seeing a few more potholes and you know crevices and all, but again it's very minor and you can go there and descend with confidence at night. You don't need real sturdy heavy wheels, you can ride, you know, kind of lightweight stuff. Yeah, my experience over the times that I've gone I first went in 2007, and I got to see a third of the course. Then 2011 2015 and 2019 I got to see the whole course and my take on on the road conditions was that in 2007. It was stunning how wonderful the roads were, and each iteration they were less wonderful, but still well above the roads that I'm used to riding here in California. Yeah, 100%. When some of our rural roads in California are just falling apart. That is just you wouldn't see that PP in 95. There was a detour because of road construction was about two or three kilometers on dirt road. It was lovely dirt, and you could ride it and it was at night. But, you know, so I'm not saying, you know, you won't see a rough road but by and large, the roads are quite good. And just, you know, you want some attention. And make sure you when you're sleepy you stay on the road that's think and kind of you asked me about what's the most prevalent repair it's of course puncture or flat tires. There are punctures that something intrudes and you know, causes your tire to lose air. And just as often I've seen people doing a poor job, installing their own tires and pinching a tube, or I look, they've started the event on worn out tires. I wanted to get to that point there that makes me nuts. And all this time, qualifying, and as an American all this expense traveling, and you can't put on two new bike tires. Just to kind of ensure your success. To that and you let me present it to you, and see what you think about this. What I would think is the best approach as far as tires go is, first off, put brand new on unpatched tubes inside new tires, and ride them here in the states, at least 100 miles. But not too much more. Right. And that way, you've you've done enough riding to confirm that you've installed them properly. And, you know, troubleshoot if you have to before you pack the bike away to send it over there, and then you are starting the event with essentially new tires. I totally agree, Rob. And there's some other there's another benefit that's happening. When you put on brand new tires on most rims. It's a real tight fit. Yeah, the tight fit. When they sit inflated for a couple weeks or thereabouts, they stretch a little bit. And once they've done that, then doing puncture repairs is way easier. Now, pbp, or any other 1200k, you'll get tired and all of your body, including your hands. So when you go to, you know, put your tire on the last little bit, a brand new tire at pbp, you could puncture in the first 24 hours, that can be a real chore. But by riding tires that have been inflated and stretched, you've ensured that you'll have the least problematic tire installation when you go to repair your puncture. So what I always recommend to people is, as you say, Rob, kind of get some good tires that you know will work well on your particular rims, ride them for a little bit, make sure they're good. And then I say keep them fully inflated on some other wheels for three weeks. And you'll go back and ride your other wheels in your final tune up rides before you go to France, but then put on your good tires before you go to France, and you'll have the best of all worlds virtually new tires. And they'll be stretched out a little bit. So would you say the best mechanical skill to learn is to change your own flat tires. Absolutely. I, I can't stress enough, the importance of doing a speedy, reliable puncture repair reliable meaning you're not pinching the tube, or if you're riding tubeless you're not mucking around with things that somehow make it take a long time. You should be able to change a tubular tire or a tube clincher tire in five minutes or less. If you can't keep practicing until you can. Yeah, I've seen people and well, they take 20 minutes for a tire repair. What if they had to repair so instead of a total of 10 minutes for two repairs, right, you're looking at over half an hour of last time. By the fourth night for the 90 hour riders or the third night for the 84 hour riders, you will sell your soul for a 30 minute nap on that last night. Oh, yeah, searching to finish your exhausted. And you're saying, can I just close my eyes for 30 minutes. You would pay a huge amount of money. I said give me $100 bill you just throw it out. If they could guarantee you 30 minutes of uninterrupted sleep. Well, you, you kind of make your own luck, you need to get through your controls a little bit of urgency in the first half the event so you can kind of rest. In the second half when you're bound to slow down and same with repairing punctures. Don't start with any situation that's like self impose like starting on worn out tires or you pinch the tube or something like that. But then if you do have a puncture, you have to be able to get through it in five minutes. And that's not an arbitrary figure. I'm an experienced bike shop mechanic, I can do it in two minutes. Now I'm getting old and feeble and my arms aren't so strong for pumping the way they used to be. So now I use a CO2 inflator. So I'm still under five minutes. And that's with fenders and getting the wheel out and taking the tire off the rim and inspecting it. The whole thing it isn't like a quicky cheap repair where part of the tire stays on the room it's taking it off. Again, two minutes is ridiculously fast. However, people will wait for you if it's only five minutes, they will eat something they'll fiddle around they'll just some closing layers, and about in five minutes they're going to look and say hey is this guy worth waiting for. If you are ready to go hey you're in a group and that's good. There's people to draft and this is true for the Brevets as much as PPP. But if you're out there at 10 minutes, you might lose your companions and if you're at 20 minutes, you're shooting yourself in the foot it's horrible. So you say oh I ran out of time. Well, let me run something by you on the topic of learning the skill of of changing a flat tire and see what you think about this so this is something that I came across. I wasn't particularly looking for this thing but it was a PPP tip that I believe it was Pamela Blalock, a name you might know. So what she described, if I'm attributing this correctly to her was learning the skill by doing the following. So, at night sometime you know when you're spending some time in front of the television and you're otherwise just sitting there. Take your tire, you know get your wheel take your tire off your wheel, put it back on pump it up while you're sitting there watching the tire so you're doing this in a very controlled and amenable situation so you're learning, you know what what tools you need to use, and how to use them, while you can see your hands doing that. And then the next step would be to do it in low light situations and so the next thing you might be to go sit outside the driveway with porch light on and swap it and then move even further away from the light source and do the same routine so that you are basically teaching yourself how to do this in progressively worse situations. Excellent advice I like the progression of doing in full light moving to lower light, and then doing it out like there's no chair to sit and you're kind of, you know, crouched over your wheel in the dark, and, and this is a true story. One of the fellows from 1979. He did it at 3am on his lawn with sprinklers going because you can puncture in the rain and the dog. Oh yeah. So, you know, maybe you say well that's a bit much, not till you when you've been there, right, desolate pitch black farm road on a Brevet, or at pbp, and it's raining, and it's dark, and you're all alone. What are you going to do. Now the first thing you want a little helmet light so you can see some people hold a little flashlight in their teeth, whatever you need some sort of auxiliary lighting. Look at your hands. Another thing is, look inside your bag. Is everything black nylon. I've got little bags in mind that are color coded. So I know one is, you know, medical stuff one is repair, one is my secondary, like my repair can pair a puncture. You know, that's the blue bag. If I got a second puncture I got to reach for the red bag, because it has a second co two and a second to inner tube and all that type of thing. Your brain, maybe on the third night fourth night of pbp gets very fuzzy. If you've done these things automatically, when your brain is alert. You get good at what you do. And if you don't do it till the big event and your brain's fuzzy, all of a sudden 30 minutes go by and you're frustrated and ready to quit. Well, these are the things that experience teaches you. And if you're a first time pbp rider. I can't stress enough, the importance of little things like Rob just described progressively getting able to repair a puncture in the dark. And with none, none of the niceties of home. If you want to throw in the rain. That's a whole nother thing. But I listen. The people in 2007 pbp. They, they earned special respect, you know, when someone said I'm a finisher 2007, I stand up a little straighter and give them a little bit. Yeah, not a respect agreed. It was horrendous. Yeah, and the people who finished look like survivors of a shipwreck. But they earned their metal. Yeah, whole bunch of people who did not. It didn't come down to fixing repairs from the roadside usually, but sometimes it did. Yeah, it was their third puncture because of stuff being washed onto the road and they just, they just were frustrated and gave up, you know, and sometimes that Rondiner tenacity is what kicks in. You know, you just have to suck it up and deal with it as best you can. And if you practice it before the big event, you'll be glad. So you're on a Brevet, someone punctures, help them out. You're cheating them of their learning experience, but you're speeding up your learning experience or go volunteer at a local. There's some like bike shops or charities that give bikes to people who need them and stuff. Practice doing flat tire changes. I didn't learn how to change tires on expensive bikes. I learned on cheap 10 speeds, you know, but then you transfer that knowledge. You can use it on bikes and all that. It should just become second nature. So you can do it in your sleep. Because you might be asleep when it happens. Yeah, right. Certainly have a sleep. Yeah. So, let me ask you, we've talked about fenders and lighting and bikes back in the 70s versus bikes today. And now we've talked a bit about roadside repairs. We've talked about the conditions on the roads, changing slightly over time. What have we skipped over that you would really like to impart? In some ways, I want to be able to finish up a little just a quick hit on mechanical repairs. The bikes we're using in 1995 weren't fundamentally different than the bikes we're using today. Maybe it's carbon fiber. Maybe it's titanium now or something. But with cable shifters and rim brakes and what had clipless pedals, there's nothing new there. After tire and tube trouble, I'd say broken spokes or a broken shift cable probably are the next problems people might have. You should learn to be able to do a competent roadside repair there. And so I just, you just need to learn how to do that. Pay a mechanic to show you and practice on that. Truing a wheel is a little bit of an art that some people have a hard time doing. But again, volunteering at your local bike charity outfit can help you learn that. You just have to pass between the brakes and you don't have to make it perfect. But carrying a spare spoke or two or a fiber fix Kevlar rope spare spoke something like that. With those fiber fix little things, I would really recommend if somebody wants to carry that for their emergency, that they open that little package up and read the instructions because it is not intuitive. Totally. I've I've built over 8000 hand built wheels. I have to read the instructions every time. So if they're counter intuitive but it means I can put that on any bike I own without having specific spoke links. But if you start your equipment with what start your event with well proven equipment and it's not worn out see some riders are going to start riding their bike like crazy from now winter of 2022 all the way through August of 2023. You know what their equipment is going to be pretty worn out in a year and a half from now so again, you know, have training wheels but have event wheel stuff like that. Make sure you're competent. The one thing I wanted to finish up with is electronic shifting and that's becoming more and more popular and I like it. It's easier on your hands, which, again, pbp will wear out all of your muscles and dexterity and all this stuff so I like electronic shifting from that standpoint. I've watched people though have trouble with it, not so much that it's unreliable if it's working for you here in the States doing your braves it'll be fine in France. But at the controls the bikes are just stacked up at night, and you might park your bike, you come out after three or four hours sleep, and there's six bikes leaning against yours, and someone's pushing on one of your paddles, and it's drain your battery. It's stuff like that. I don't think there's anything wrong with electronic shifting, but there might be something wrong that happens in the control parking lots. So, make sure you can troubleshoot it I would carry recharging cables and what have you. I'd be able to kind of troubleshoot, like, why is my bike not shifting right now as it gone into crash mode for something or, you know, who knows, but I've met riders who use electronic shifting, but they rely on their bike shop to set it up to keep it running smoothly all they do is just recharge it. End of story. The randonors need to be sort of self reliant and with bicycles up until now. I'd say that was easy to do. Fixing a broken gear cable fixing a broken spoke truing a wheel fixing a puncture. You're good to go. Now with some of the very sophisticated stuff like electronic shifting. I'll say some disc brakes are a little touchy. And you're going to travel with your bike make sure you know how to sort of fine tune these things. And again that might require a little bit of extra work on your part in the next year and a half before you go to France. But that's the one thing I throw out there about equipment. Okay. So, if, if we're considering our audience, among our audience is going to be a fairly large segment of people that will be going to pbp for the first time. And they might think that what they want to get a bike different than the bike that they have right now. You might say, you know, now's the time to get that bike so that you have as much experience with it as possible let's talk about what's what's the, the, no later than date that you would want to do that for example, you know, we want to avoid the extreme of, and I think we have a wider topic to of showing up to be be on something or with some element that you are not familiar with yet. Well, that could be dangerous for the rider. If everything goes well. It does seem like they're genius and they got this nice new sleek bike that was two pounds lighter than their old bike or whatever, whatever the reason is for, you know, I'd say why are you buying a new bike. And I'll come back to the three things I think are essential for a good wandering bike. But when you say is there some day, if you're working with a highly competent bike shopper expert on fit. The new bike fits exactly like your older one that let's say your bike fits great. No issues with, you know, stiff neck or sore hands everything's great. You just wish it was kind of newer, or you're moving from nine speed to 11 speed or something like that. If, if, if you're the people you're working with can get exactly the same fit. And that, you know, it can be pretty late in the game, although I really wish people ride all of their 2023 Brevets on their PVP bike. So I would say, January of 2023, you should have your bike really kind of dialed in every Brevet, your qualifying Brevets are just finished. The ACP are wonderful people they want you to come do the event with them. They think it's great you came this far to do PVP that's wonderful. They're great, they're great people by the way, their bike riders they want you to be there. I would give a crap. If you didn't finish your 600 K, let's say oh well we've got 7000 other people who did, you know, and we've got plenty of people from your country so tough luck come back in four years. They're not heartless, but they're not going to extend you any special circumstances to somehow make up for you. You really should have gotten your bike dialed in before your 400 K and 600 K where 2436 hours on a bike brings up neck problems or numb hands or something like that. A problem we saw some years ago, people moving from frame shifters to brake lever shifters, they stick out a little bit farther and about a centimeter or two farther. And so people are reaching with their hands, they're getting all kinds of neck problems and hand problems. They shorten their stems, but in 91, 95, there's this rash of tendonitis and all from people switching over to brifters. Now everyone uses them now, they're kind of a standard thing. If you're making that switch from some fit thing, from a certain kind of a brake handle, let's say you're going from rim brakes to hydraulic brakes, those brake handles are different. Make sure you're not just measuring to the handlebars, you're measuring from your saddle to the brake levers and all that. So there's a lot going on with fit that isn't a problem on a three hour ride or a century ride. 12 hours, 24 hours, 36, 48 hours. For some of us, 45 hours is halfway through PBP. 90 hours is brutal. So you will see people quitting with various neuropathy and tendonitis and stuff or a shirmer neck and things like that. Because they're too stretched out or their handlebars aren't high enough or something. And so people coming from a racing background where the handlebars are low compared to the saddle height. Ron, the nurse, if you look around at the experience with their bars are pretty high because they're on the bike so long, they just can't be that bent over. And so if you're new to our sport and your handlebars are lower than your saddle by a lot, I would look at raising your handlebars. And if you bought them a centimeter closer, maybe you'd be happier after 24 hours, things like that. So from the bike perspective, is it a safe statement to make that you, as far as fit goes, you're going to be able to better answer your fit questions if you've done things like multiple 600s before you show up for PBP. Yes. So it's time on the bike. You can't, there's no shortcut to finding out the fit problems other than spending that time on the bike. Pretty much. I, you know, bike shop people, they're probably their best fitters are probably going to be working with racers or triathletes, or older people for we're getting stuff and things don't work anymore so they're raising stem stuff like that. But, but Ron DeNours, it's a real niche part of the sport of bicycling and the things that happen from multiple days on a bicycle. Most bike shop personnel are not going to be equipped to help you when you find a fit specialist who is you pay the money and you keep dealing with him. So, when you get your new bike and what have you, you want to check in before your bravets and say how you're feeling and everything was good and, and then after like what my next kind of sore or, you know, my hands got kind of numb. Don't say, oh, I'll just shake it out and it'll be better next time because I have this in my experience now. Now, fit problems tend to get worse with you so I'm a big believer in riding multiple 400s and 600k events. The new qualifying method to get in line for PPP so that we have to do events in 2022 to ride in 2023 is really good compared to the old days when we just had to do in the year of people would get fit problems that get injuries resulting from fit in June of the year of PPP. They might have to take a month off the bike. They were so severe well wrecked their train but now I hope riders will really be thinking about their fit and as 2022 unfolds and you're doing I assume 200 300 400. You probably should do a 600 to get into PPP with assurance I mean I know you might get in with a 300 or 400, but just to get yourself ready as a first time rider, try to do a 600 this year, and that'll get you a good starting wave next year. And when you go and do your qualifying events in 2020 23. It should be no drama. No fit problems you did all that the prior year. I think this raises a really good historical discussion about the qualification part part and you know it's, it shouldn't be viewed in a negative way. So what I mean by that is, and here's, you know, some somewhere where you can correct a myth that I've picked up over time. But at one point I believe that at least Americans, if not other countries were required to do qualifiers two years in a row, the full series two years and is that true. That is true. In 1979 and 83 Americans had a little higher than average DNF rate and I remember. DNF is like something a lot of the French clubs worry about they get trophies, not for how fast they go PPP, the most finishers. And so quitting kind of lets down your team. Right. So DNF thing PPP is is not seen as a good thing by a lot of people in France, and other countries. So there's always this competition like which countries had the best success rate, and there's informal pride and bragging rights about that. And so in 80 in 79 and 83 Americans did okay, not great, maybe like a third of the Americans were DNF or something. But it's not, not real good when, when most countries be 1215 20% DNF. So we were above average. But in 19, the 1987, yeah, PPP, the American DNF rate was shockingly bad. I forget the exact number but I want to say it was like 47% I mean nearly half the Americans quit, which was strange, because the Americans did great in individual accomplishment. Fastest male fastest female fastest tandem, things like that, most tandem so just in some ways there was individual success, but as a group. We sucked badly. And so the ACP worked with the old international round and or saying, you got to change this, your writers are taking up places of other people who might want to be here, who could finish and all. And so, starting for the 91 PPP, two years of qualifying was required for anybody who wasn't a previous finish. So like, for me, I just had one year of qualifying in 91, because I was a previous finisher, but all the new writers had to do two years of I wasn't aware of that nuance to it that it wasn't every American. So I said for Americans. Well, there are so few of us who had finished the prior events, who are coming back for most Americans it's it's once and done because it's so expensive and the time it takes to do. So, when you look at the list of American finishers, most of them are just one year, or one time I should say, anyway, so for 91 and 95 there's two year qualifying. Participation dropping off in America to it was a real burden. So Londoners USA got started we so we're going back to one year qualifying and we did. And our success rate was pretty good. And in 2003 pretty good again. And, but not usually quite as good as the event amount, which is typically 15 to 18%. In recent years it's been around 20%. Well, you know some countries in 2019 had horrible finishing rates, and I'm curious what will be put in place to encourage them to do better in 2023. My understanding is there might be some special qualifying criteria for them or something. So, what I wanted to comment on, and you know, you may or may not agree with, with this perspective, but I looked at the current approach in terms of it's been specifically to address. In terms of registering, or, or from from the standpoint of the rider, ensuring to a greater degree your ability to get in so that you would do events. The year before pvp to try and raise your, your highest longest finishing event, and therefore earlier slot to pre register. And I think that that was, it shouldn't be looked at as a burden, or as honoris. Instead, it's an opportunity for you to gain more experience and increase your chances of being successful. So that if you if this encourages people to do a 600 K the year before. They now show up with at least to 600 Ks and under their belt before they do pvp because they'll have to do one in the year of pvp as well. So this is really, I think, a good thing. I agree with you Rob I think is a good thing too. I think if you had questioned me in the 90s I may not have thought that but with time, I really do think the new system is pretty good. For example, we had a local rider. She had done pvp several times, and she didn't want to do a whole nother year of Brevet's, but she did a lot of double centuries. And then she came and did a successful 600 K. She did one extra wrong the new ring event, the year before the last pvp, and they do fine she went and finished pvp like she always does. It isn't like you have to do to see two years of series but you have to do like 400 or 600, just to show your sort of game. And I think overall, it raises the level of ability of a whole bunch of riders. Sometimes hubris is a problem people say oh I've done this right I've done that. And that's different you know like doing some big endurance race with a car trending along behind you with lights and food and masseuses and all this stuff is not the same as Ron the new ring. And I think doing an unsupported 600 K teaches strong riders new skills they didn't have because they're maybe coming from a supported endurance racing background or something like that. For your average rider who is maybe done some centuries and maybe a double century. They need all the experience they can get and they need to build up the confidence and if they do a Brevet series the year before pvp, they'll go into the qualifying really confident that they can pull this off and it's worth all the expense. In the in the days of just one year of qualifying. There are some very nervous people who aren't sure this was all going to work out but they had their non refundable airline tickets right yeah they weren't they weren't yet sure if they liked this. Exactly. Am I going to like that. Yeah, I actually have come around to be a supporter of the new method I think it's, it rewards participation and effort, and your people are going to do pretty well right yeah it helps grow the sport. And I might throw just a quick addition to that, working at fougere which was at 300 K and 900 K point. Last time, we had a bunch of people dropping out at 300 K, which is way too early, you've hardly started the ride at one quarter distance. You should know the controls are not set up to somehow get you back to the start. They're there to control riders going out and coming back. If you get out of the ride, you're really on your own. And so, do everything you can to not be a DNF, because your life gets interesting. When you have to get yourself back to Paris or Rambo. Yeah, wherever you're started from, not part of the ride and so train harder. Make and do your events in 2022 and just make sure you're going to be a finisher. And you'll be so proud of your metal. It's PPP as a life changing event. The first one. I encourage everyone, don't go there with the idea I've heard people say, Oh, well, you know, the first time is just for learning not everyone finishes. A whole lot of people do it their first time successfully, a whole lot of them. And don't go with the attitude that somehow it's normal to DNF your first one. That's simply not true statistically, and it's not in the ethos of our sport. So I wanted to link this, what may have appeared as a little bit of a sidetrack, are talking about the prior year pre qualification effort into our general theme about bikes. And what the prior year, pre qualifying effort will help you do is, you know, not just learn how you perform on a 600 K. And so that you'll get more experience but you're spending that time on your bike. So you're finding out more about your fit. And, you know, how your bike feels to you at 550 kilometers in, as opposed to 50 kilometers. So, you know, there's there's the benefit there and you know I would, I would encourage people that have questions about, you know, am I on the right bike. Well, doing longer braves in 2022. And that bike that you have questions about is possibly going to give you the opportunity you need to answer those questions, and to either change your bike, or get a different one. Here's three things I want riders to really focus on in 2022. Maybe they'll lead you to thinking you need a new bike, or maybe it won't. Your bike has to fit well. This means the frame size the top to the length the angle of the seat tube, you know the relation of your hips versus the pedals, your femur length, shoe size all these things matter. You reach to the handlebars, make sure it fits. Usually the bike you're riding can be adapted with a good bike shop to make this work maybe need a seat post that kicks the seat back real far. Maybe you need a shorter stem maybe need a higher stem. The bike you're riding probably can be made to fit perfectly. Maybe it's old maybe the parts are kind of worn and maybe you want something newer. Okay, but fit is something you can probably do with your existing bike and the help of a good bike shop. Excuse me. And then the other thing it must be 100% reliable. As we discussed earlier, you can't take away the thread of a simple puncture, but beyond a simple puncture. Your bike shouldn't let you down. Most people finish PPP with no punctures they just ride their bike that's all there is to it. Maybe they've got a puncture or two, but other stuff broken spokes gear cables all these are all things you can get out of the equation before your braves, you know work on that this winter. Maybe you need training wheels to thrash around on keeping some special wheels for your event, or maybe it doesn't mean servicing your bike and inspecting like are any cracks developing around the spoke nipples on your room. A good mechanical spot those things like that or your sidewalls where the on the rims wearing. Yes, yeah, if you're running rim brakes, are your sidewalls worn out from years of riding these wheels. Good point. So you have your bike has to be 100% reliable. The difference between riding some older bike that's in tip top shape and fits well and something new is virtually nil it doesn't mean much. Maybe faster PPP from training harder, and being efficient at your controls and not getting lost. That's, that's wrong denouring, but okay, your standard older bike that you rode for years. You want to do and that's fine, but make sure it fits and make sure it's reliable. And then the other thing is and this is where we got off in a little bit of a tangent about what bikes don't work. It should be reasonably lightweight. It doesn't mean it has to be cutting edge sub 20 pounds, but I think the term of art there is stupid light. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, lightweight and there's stupid light that'll let you down during such a long event. But like I said, we talked about fat bikes. Well, maybe you've got a mountain bike. I've seen people at PVP on mountain bikes with nobby tires. Okay, nobby tires on pavement don't make a lot of sense but here's the other thing. They're heavy. They roll easier without the knobs. So don't shoot yourself in the foot or like my friend who brought, you know, 60 hours of sports gels, his panniers weighed, I think like 35 pounds. And when everyone else's might have one panty with clothes, and it weighed eight pounds, you know, stuff like that. Don't don't shoot yourself in the foot so it has to fit. It has to be reliable, and it has to be reasonably lightweight. Those are the three things. After that, you know, you go to the, to the finishing corral of all the finishers, PPP, and you look at the bikes, the variety of age of cost of type. They're similar. They're, you know, they're nine 1011 speed drive trains, maybe three chain rings, maybe two, maybe one rim brakes disc brakes, but it's kind of like a road bike or it's a tandem or a recumbent or something. Some people are on a fixed gear. And if that's what you're used to doing more power to you. But the bikes aren't like the be all and end all, but if you're stopped by the road fixing a broken wheel that you shouldn't have never started the event on. And the same is true for your braves. You just shot yourself in the foot for something I assume you care a lot about PPP is really hard, qualifying for it is really hard. I assume if you're going to do this you care about finishing a lot. Don't hamstring yourself with subpar equipment, which isn't the same as buying a sleek new bike to have delivered in the spring of 2023. But if you can, great, I mean, it's nice to have a nice bike. I mean, you're spending all this time on your bike. It's nice to have what you want. But I don't want new riders to think that somehow they can't participate because they're riding a $3,000 bike, but again, afford an $8,000 bike, that kind of a thing. It just isn't true. You'll see very modest bikes in use at PPP. People are coming from all countries around the globe. And for a lot of them, the bike they can afford would be ones most Americans wouldn't want to ride. In 1995, I was helping riders, I was out of control. And this rider was a little bit apart from the others that is at a high school campus. And I could see him, he was stripping his saddle off his bike, his handlebar bag, and I think his lights. And then he picked his bike up and chucked it into the dumpster. And I stopped him and in my crappy friend said, What are you doing? What's wrong? And he pointed out the frame had broken. And it was a very inexpensive Pujo. He said it's 25 years old. I wish, you know, I had not brought it. I'll be back in four years, but he stripped off the stuff that was valuable and he just chucked the rest of it. Now, for him, living in France, maybe PPP isn't such a once in a lifetime thing, but for most of us Americans or from Australia or Canada, it's a big trip and the cost of it. So you don't want to start on some crummy used up old gas pipe beater that you commuted on for 20 years, you know, so there's a balance in everything, everything, you know, in moderation, you don't have to spend tons of money, but don't start on a worn out bicycle either. Okay, well thanks, Bill for for sitting and chatting with me today about bikes and PPP. Just a reminder to the viewers that will be watching this on YouTube later. Bill is along with having a long history of working with bikes in a lot of different ways, including building frames. Bill has also put a lot of effort into randomers USA. Bill is the RBA currently along with his wife of the Santa Cruz region here in California. Bill has been on the rusa board, and has your past president correct. Correct. Right and bill also serves on several committees, supporting rusa as well. Bill is considered one of the founders of rusa has a, you are rusa number seven, is that right. So, to conclude tonight's session here I just wanted to ask you the question rusa number seven. Why did you wait so long to join. Well, gosh, I, when we started rusa, I volunteered to run membership. And I gave the lowest numbers to people I thought maybe were ahead of me with starting the whole ball of wax, and somewhere around five or six or something. The numbers are up for grabs and so I gave myself seven and I gave lowest number eight, and I'm a little bit superstitious and I like odd numbers more than even numbers. So that could be a problem. So that's why it wasn't ladies first. No, I was, I knew lowest didn't care and she was happy with eight. Okay. Well, thank you again, Bill. You're welcome. Happy to help and I'm sure you know contact people your RBA in your region. He or she will have experience. They've seen riders be successful at Brevet is a scene writers be unsuccessful. They probably can answer questions about equipment. There's so many other things with wandering navigation pacing nutrition there's all sorts of your RBA will be a big asset, but there's other people in your club to ride a Brevet with someone who's done people. They were some who's done PBB talked to them and, you know, any equipment offers observations they want to share with you things like that. So I think Ron winners USA is a great organization, and they'll help new riders, but the new writers have to ask. And feel free to ask the questions don't wait for somebody to give you the answers. That's right ahead of the question. That's right. Thanks again, Bill. the road. You can see it. See out there. Nice talking to you.